Category: News and Views
Hey all this article was interestin so I'm sharing it. Wane doesn't liek it, but oh well. typicalmale narrowmindness if you ask me.
so where is it I agree with free speech up to a point
oh shit, sorry I guess it didn't come through sorry let me try that again.
It's probably too long to fit on the boards .. my guess
Mike T with an interesting news story.
Who's wrong here. Who's right? Who's to say? It's come down to this.
What do you think?
***
2 Winona High students put free speech to the test
> James Walsh, Star Tribune
> April 21, 2005 VAGIN0421
> Two Winona High School students have found themselves in hot water with
> school officials.
>
> Why? Because after Carrie Rethlefsen attended a performance of the play
> "The Vagina Monologues" last month, she and Emily Nixon wore buttons to
> school that
> read: "I [heart] My Vagina."
>
> School leaders said that the pin is inappropriate and that the
> discomfort it causes trumps the girls' right to free speech. The girls
> disagree. And despite
> repeated threats of suspension and expulsion, Rethlefsen has continued
> to wear her button.
>
> The girls have won support from other students and community members.
>
> More than 100 students have ordered T-shirts bearing "I [heart] My
> Vagina" for girls and "I Support Your Vagina" for boys.
>
> "We can't really find out what is inappropriate about it," Rethlefsen,
> 18, said of the button she wears to raise awareness about women's
> issues. "I don't
> think banning things like that is appropriate."
>
> Their case could become another test of whether high school students
> have the right to express their views in school. Charles Samuelson,
> executive director
> of the American Civil Liberties Union of Minnesota, has offered to help
> the girls.
>
> "It's political speech," he said.
>
> Samuelson acknowledged that school officials can limit speech considered
> detrimental or dangerous. But he said this case is similar to Tinker v.
> Des Moines,
> a 1969 U.S. Supreme Court ruling in a case where students were forbidden
> to wear black armbands to protest the Vietnam War. The court ruled that
> First
> Amendment rights are available to teachers and students and that
> administrators' fear about how others might react is not enough to
> squelch those rights.
>
> "Free speech is a messy thing," Samuelson said. "People need to
> understand that opinions that they are not comfortable with, or even
> opinions they disagree
> with, need to be allowed."
>
> Good students
>
> To say the girls have never been in trouble at school before is an
> understatement. They are top students. Rethlefsen was in Minneapolis on
> Tuesday, presenting
> her science project on organic farming at General Mills. She has been
> invited to a prestigious international science and engineering fair for
> the fourth
> year in a row.
>
> Nixon, 17, joked that when she was called into the assistant principal's
> office about the button issue, he told her: "I don't think we've ever
> met."
>
> But they're in trouble now. And it could get worse.
>
> Rethlefsen said school officials first told her the button was
> inappropriate in mid-March when a school secretary spotted it. That
> started a string of visits
> -- and debates -- with teachers, counselors, an assistant principal and
> the principal. A teacher barred Rethlefsen from her classroom as long as
> she wore
> her button.
>
> "The principal said that by wearing the pin, I was giving people wrong
> ideas," Rethlefsen said. "That I was giving an open invitation [to
> guys]."
>
> The girls said they tried to explain that the buttons are meant to spark
> discussion about violence against women, about women's rights. But
> Principal Nancy
> Wondrasch said others find the buttons offensive.
>
> "We support free speech," she said. "But when it does infringe on other
> people's rights and our school policies, then we need to take a look at
> that."
>
> Wondrasch said she thought they had worked out a compromise with the
> girls, allowing them to set up a table in the school to discuss women's
> issues. But
> Rethlefsen said school officials are insisting that they review and
> approve any information the girls want to present.
>
> So they're turning to the T-shirts, paid for with money collected from
> friends and supporters. "And we're going to wear them sometime next
> week," Rethlefsen
> said.
>
> Nixon said more than 100 students are expected to wear the shirts. She
> added that officials have threatened real consequences if that happens.
>
> "They told us that if a single person showed up wearing them, we're
> going to get expelled," she said. "People are going to wear them
> anyway."
>
> Wondrasch wouldn't comment on what sort of discipline the students might
> face. But the prospect of expulsion worries Rethlefsen's mother, Ann.
>
> "She's a very independent young lady," Ann Rethlefsen said, adding that
> she understands the school's point. "We just want to make sure she
> graduates."
>
> Her daughter has gained "a lot of support around town," she said. She's
> even received encouraging e-mails from noted feminist author Susan
> Faludi.
>
> Nixon is nervous about what could happen next. But the girls say they
> are taking a stand.
>
> "We're not trying to offend anyone," Nixon said. "But I want people to
> think for themselves and come up with their own conclusions."
>
> James Walsh is at
>
jwalsh@startribune.com.
>
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Hmm interesting but one has to wonder whether they wore the pins to raise awareness,or whether they were looking for attention..either way its a contensious issue...but I am with the girls.in 2005 its childish and insecure to be offended by the word vagina...
Hmm interesting but one has to wonder whether they wore the pins to raise awareness,or whether they were looking for attention..either way its a contensious issue...but I am with the girls.in 2005 its childish and insecure to be offended by the word vagina...
Yes I don't find the word vegina offensive. However, this is a school, and I think that if by wearing this t-shirt they are causing disruption, they shouldn't be allowed to continue wearing it. Is the fact that several people are ordering these t-shirts who attend the school though due to the content of the t-shirt, or the schools reaction? I agree with the message of the T-shirts, but think that a mature person should be able to raise awareness by debating the issue rather than attention seaking by wearing a t-shirt with a slogan endorsing their views on the issue.
it wasn't a T-shirt it was a pin either way the girls were doing it to prove a point,and in a way they achieved their ends..however its not hard to imagine their friends wasting time discussing the word vagina,than the real issues highlighted by the meaning behind the pin ....
the real meaning isn't clear just by the pin, but I do agree that the word "vagina" is not offensive. All women have them, so if you're offended, I think you should think again.
But these same women would be upset if a guy came to school with a button saying he liked his penis. Irony anyone?
It's been six years and my guess is these women are now working like the rest of us, maybe still in college.
And does anyone actuallly think a creepo is gonna stop abusing a woman because of a button? Typical of the 'raise awareness' crowd: goes no place,except to make the awareness-raisers *feel* like they're doing something.
I wouldn't be offended by a guy saying or indicating that he loves his penis. I think everyone should be able to talk about and respect their own bodies, whether they're male or female. Is it a little weird to go around wearing that like a sign? Well, I definitely think so, but I'm not against it, and if they so choose to wear those buttons, by all means, I think they should be allowed.
Similar issues have come up before, one of which being the use of cell phones in school. But while I can understand that cell phones can cause a real disturbance in class, I can't understand why pins/t-shirts really would. If you want to get technical, anything and everything could potentially be disturbing. What if someone is bothered by decorative pens in class? Should that mean that nobody can use decorative pens in class?
The way I see it is that if the speech or belief does not personally harm someone, (and by harm, I mean causing actual physical or emotional harm), to the masses, then I say people need to learn how to let things go, whether they're related to vaginas or anything else.
I don't know if it's the same in all schools, but I know in the school I went to, there was a policy where if there was a student that was particularly bothered by something that went on in class, that student had the right to switch classes, as long as he or she understood that work would still need to be completed according to the curriculum.
I agree with Jess. well said.
the monster that was created is to give people prizes for being offended. Whether it's a feminist offended by a male gesture, or a religious nut offended by something that doesn't come from Victorian England, they're all a pack of fools, and the rest of us that let them get away with being offended all the time, are their zookeepers, no more, no less. The principal was just engaging in feeding time at the zoo: the button wearers feeling good about taking their stand, and the fool zoo pets getting fed by having their attention-seeking little selves all worked up.
I'm not understanding the fuss about one's privates...it's like the child's line in the movie "Kindergarten Cop" with Arnold Schwarzenneger: "Boys have a penis girls have a vagina". Why do we have to raise awareness of that? Everyone has one or the other. What's next, buttons saying "I love my arse" or legs or some other body part? I think some line has to be drawn between free speech and distraction, and the "I love my vagina" or "I support my vagina" buttons IMO are closer to distraction. The school should be a place to learn, not be distracted or test the waters for free speech, and yes I think if a young man came to school wearing an "I love my penis" button feminists wouldn't be so happy. It's kind of like the ol' double standard of my high school days: in the heat of Florida, girls could wear mini skirts to schools, but the boys couldn't wear shorts. Forget that...
has anyone pulled out the constitution to read? and besides, if you're under eighteen, really, they don't necessarily apply. you're a minor and your parents are in charfge. Also, the supreme court has said you can't use fighting words or stuff that will incite anger and stuff like that and this does. Meaning is contextual, the word itself from the dictionary might not be, but it's both social and contextual. meaning isn't just the dictionaries mening, it's also how people define it, and in that context it is offensive, gross, and inapppropriate, and not to mention a distraction which is another problem. it's like you can't shout fire in a crowded theater. fire isn't a bad thing or a word that is particularly offensive, but it does cause danger and is inappropriate at that time.
but thanks for not posting something like john tried to use free speech with his friends and it didn't work or his parents, because I am so damn tired of that, free speech is only for the government so don't misuse it.
I'm sorry Rachel but you've got so much wrong here it's not even funny.
"and besides, if you're under eighteen, really, they don't necessarily apply."
Actually the students in question who started wearing the pins ARE 18. There goes that idea of yours out the window.
The Constitution reads "WE the people of the United States". there is no age limit on the Constitution.
Also students in High schools do have a freedom of speech as the Supreme Court ruling in Tinker vs. Des Moines tells us.
"Also, the supreme court has said you can't use fighting words or stuff that will incite anger and stuff like that and this does."
Wrong again.
The supreme court ruled that students can not use defamatory language or language that will incite VIOLENCE, the Supreme Court has said nothing about inciting anger.
So your whole argument here is completely flawed.
"Meaning is contextual, the word itself from the dictionary might not be, but it's both social and contextual. meaning isn't just the dictionaries mening, it's also how people define it,"
Meaning is only contextual when the word itself is open to context. Look up the word run in the dictionary.
Vagina is a medical terminology, it's meaning is not contextual in this case because it only has one definition. Now if these students had something like "I love my pussy" then you might have a case.
" and in that context it is offensive, gross, and inapppropriate,"
That's only subjective opinion, your opinion. Anyone with half a brain would realize that "vagina" is none of the things you described it as.
"and not to mention a distraction which is another problem. it's like you can't shout fire in a crowded theater."
Things are only a distraction when you allow them to be. By making a huge fuse over this the teachers are making far more of a distraction for the students then the pins ever would.
Shouting "fire" in a crowded movie theater is NOT a distraction, so your example is moot. It's actually a false alarm, and can cause injury to those trying to leave.
"free speech is only for the government so don't misuse it."
What the hell is this? Where does the Constitution say that free speech is only for the Government?
One last thing for Rachel.
"has anyone pulled out the constitution to read?"
Obviously you haven't. If you had read the Constitution as you suggest others to do then you would not have made so many glaring mistakes.
That is simply the way of the conservatives.
Here is more to this story:
Carrie Rethlefsen, the Student Who Wore the Infamous "I Heart My Vagina" Button, Shares Her Personal Story | V-Day: A Global Movement to End Violence Against
Women and Girls Worldwide.
09/25/2005
I was sexually molested when I was thirteen years old. I did not know that it was not my fault. I felt as though I should have known and should have been able to do something about it. I felt dirty and ashamed to be me. I blamed myself. I entered into the eighth grade and I realized that my personality had changed. I became shy and unable to talk about boyfriends with any of my closest friends. I could not tell them what had happened to me. I always felt as if the whole world was looking at me and talking about what a slut I was. I thought that everyone knew what I had done and what was done to me. I pushed all of my friends away from me and when I was in conversation with people, I often changed the subject when I became uncomfortable. I became physically sick at any mention of foreplay or any sexual comment. I could not get through a day without throwing up for nearly a year. The sickness continued on for over three years, before I finally gained control over the situation. I became depressed and felt as though I could not go on living my life in fear. I was so afraid of the opinions that people had of me. I lost all of my best friends, because they knew something was wrong and I could not tell them. I just lied. I began psychotherapy and I was not able to express what had happened to me. It still ate away inside of me. I went to see “The Vagina Monologues” when I was in eleventh grade. The play moved me more than anything had ever moved me before and I began to see that I could be able to survive. The stories that were shared in “The Vagina Monologues” made me realize that I was not alone and that nothing was my fault. I grew strength and found that I wanted to help other people from being placed in this state of silence and constant fear. I saw “The Vagina Monologues” again the following year and I purchased the “I heart my vagina” pin. I wore the pin, because I was finally able to reclaim my vagina. I was able to feel comfortable in my body and I wanted to let other people know that a vagina is not a dirty part of the body and that no one should be ashamed of their vaginas. I wore the button for other people like me, who could not talk about what happened to them. I wore the button, because I loved myself and I finally loved my vagina. My vagina was mine again and I needed to wear that button. Silence is a weapon used against women to make them feel badly about themselves. I was not able to speak of what happened to me, because I blamed myself. It was not my fault and expressing love for my vagina helped me to realize this. I am proud of who I am and realize that I need to devote my entire life to helping other women and their vaginas. No child should ever feel as I did. I have survived and I am finally able to tell my story. I need to tell my story for my healing and also to help others heal. We need to be able to talk about our vaginas. “The Vagina Monologues” made me realize that I needed to reach out to other females the way the play reached me. I am devoted to reducing sexual violence in women through breaking the barrier of silence.
Editor's note:
Carrie began a whirlwind of controversy at her high school after seeing the V-Day production at Winona State University and purchasing an “I (heart) my Vagina” button and wearing it to school this past April. She was told by her school administrators to remove the button or face expulsion. She sought help from the local ACLU while her school stood firm with their decision to treat her efforts as disruptive to the educational process. Ultimately she and 40 of her peers and gave host to a rally in front of the school with female students wearing shirts that said "I (heart) my vagina" and male students shirts saying "I support your vagina." Her efforts not only made a huge impact in local education and dialogue about issues of violence in her community, but her story was also picked up by national media with widespread coverage on her extraordinary efforts.
Carrie Rethlefsen was an honor roll student graduating in the top five percent of her class and was a member of the National Honor Society. Carrie is now a freshman at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, where she is pursuing an honors degree in Women's Studies and Political Science.
This fall, V-Day invited Carrie to participate in the Vagina Warrior panel at the 2005 Omega and V-Day Women & Power conference in Rhinebeck, NY. Carrie graciously accepted and joined an esteemed panel featuring Agnes Pareyio, founder of the V-Day Safe House In Kenya; C.C. Carter, producer of Chicago V-Day's and POWWOW Founder' Nighat Rivzi, producer of V-Day in Islamabad, Pakistan; and Esther Chavez Cano, founder of Casa Amiga in Cuidad Juarez, Mexico.
Carrie is a true vagina warrior and definitely a leader of the new revolution.
Vagina warrior? VAGINA WARRIOR?
Oh wow... I laughed so hard I cried.
Not to dispel what she went through... but... but... SERIOUSLY?
I know! I was thinking the same thing. And all that stuff about reclaiming her vagina, well, what about reclaiming your womanhood? Your soul? No, just your vagina, apparently. Not that I'm saying that's not an essential part of it, but really...
And revolution?
Again, are any of these cowards who inflict the ravages of torture on young girls like she was actually going to listen? I think not, except maybe to the business end of <insert weapon here>.
Like Kate I feel sorry for her having been ravaged, and contempt for the coward(s) who did the ravaging, but what on earth is a women's studies group going to do about it? They are so cloistered and tucked away in academia someplace, not out offering a hand up to the many ravaged women here and abroad.
By the way, where were the women's studies people when the Taliban invaded Afghanistan and subjected women to unspeakable cruelties? Oh, I forget, clumsy me: they were claiming it was "their culture" so it didn't matter.
Credibility failure on that one.
Yes, that is a failure. Culture can be backwards when it comes to humane practices. That said, rape has the massive potential to destroy. I myself have witnessed a wide variety of results from rape victims. Often the results are very long-lasting and psychologically far-reaching.
I for one found her story moving. I too was amused by the Vagina Warrior comment. To be honest, I'm surprised so many people have a problem with these pins. While the statement might be a little vague, it's a step in the right direction. Perhaps that direction will one day lead to action. Better to make a statement then to sit by in idleness pretending issues don't exist or that they'll go away. Now if they were dressing up as a pair of lower lady lips, I could see that being somewhat more contravercial. But the word Vagina? Unless I'm sorely mistaken, sexual education class doesn't call a vagina a bunny hole. It calls it a vagina. Personally I'd wear an "I support your vagina" pin.
I think both sides are a little out there - the girls for wearing the pins and frankly making this a bigger deal than it really is (it's a PIN, for crying out loud) and the school for... um... being offended and making it a bigger deal than it really is (um... it's a pin.. get over it!)
@BlindGuardian:
While I do not get offended at the pins, as Kate put it it is just a pin, I question your statement:
LOL Leo, thank you! It's like all those runs/bike-rides/interminable soccer matches to conquer cancer. What is it ACTUALLY doing?
You're not wrong. Leo. WHile it's true it probably won't help, it may at least help create some conversation which might eventually lead to something productive. Probably not, but someone needs to have a posative outlook.:)